It's a democratic REPUBLIC, stupid!

The U.S. is not a democracy.  It never has been.  It is a democratic republic.  What's the difference, you may ask?  In a democracy, citizens vote directly on all laws and policies.  In a democratic republic, citizens vote for representatives, who in turn make policy decisions on the citizenry's behalf.

In other words, you have the right to vote for someone else who will in turn cast the votes that really count.  THAT is the principle of democracy in this country, as well as in the Democratic primaries.  Halving the delegates of Florida and Michigan in no way violates voters' rights or makes voters voices "count less," because they never directly counted to begin with.  Their votes would count for electing their assigned number of delegates to the convention, same as always.  The only difference would be that those delegates' votes would only count for half as much.

Or, to put it simply: The voters' votes would count in full, but the delegates' (not to be confused with the voters) votes would not.

Those are the rules, folks.  And not only are those rules fully constitutional, but everybody agreed to those rules from the outset.  Yes, even Hillary Clinton:

And Terry McAuliffe:

"I'm going outside the primary window," [Michigan Sen. Carl Levin] told me definitively.

   "If I allow you to do that, the whole system collapses," I said. "We will have chaos. I let you make your case to the DNC, and we voted unanimously and you lost."

   He kept insisting that they were going to move up Michigan on their own, even though if they did that, they would lose half their delegates. By that point Carl and I were leaning toward each other over a table in the middle of the room, shouting and dropping the occasional expletive.

   "You won't deny us seats at the convention," he said.

   "Carl, take it to the bank," I said. "They will not get a credential. The closest they'll get to Boston will be watching it on television. I will not let you break this entire nominating process for one state. The rules are the rules. If you want to call my bluff, Carl, you go ahead and do it."

   We glared at each other some more, but there was nothing much left to say. I was holding all the cards and Levin knew it. [Source: McAuliffe, Terry. What A Party!, p. 325.]

Halving the delegates is in accordance with both the letter (the DNC is a private party and has the right to set its own rules) and the spirit (all votes count, but not directly) of the law. So let's stop with the nonsense, please.  The halving proposal is a perfectly reasonable, appropriate, and legal solution to the Florida/Michigan problem.  The Republicans who live there (and whose delegates were halved from the getgo) aren't complaining.  Why are you?

EDIT: Just to clarify, I am not saying that this system is perfect or ideal. But it is the system we have now, and to utterly throw that system out the window at the moment would be significantly less ideal. Anarchy is in no way superior to representative democracy.

DOUBLE EDIT: As for everyone complaining that halving the delegates is unfair because "you're arbitrarily reducing the impact of their vote," I have two things to say to you. One, it isn't arbitrary at all. You knowingly break the rules, you incur the consequences. Convicted felons don't get a vote in elections at all, even if they are citizens, because they broke the rules. So it goes. Two, if infractions stop having consequences, that is NOT good for democracy. Think of all the little spoiled brats you've ever seen that you just can't stand. How did they get that way? Because nobody enforced any rules in his/her household, so the little brat thought he/she could get away with anything. Same principle here. Unless you want to see the 2012 primary race begin in January 2010, stop trying to reward bad behavior.

Poll
Should the delegates be halved?
Yes. It's the best solution--the voters' votes still count, but the state is penalized for breaking the rules.
No. Florida and Michigan should count in full!
No. Florida and Michigan shouldn't get any delegates.

Votes: 211
Results : Vote Link : Polls

Display:


Silly season, indeed. n/t (2.00 / 30)


Wouldn't it be nice if there were no rhetorical questions?
by Elsinora on Thu May 22, 2008 at 10:57:49 PM EST

Re: Silly season, indeed. n/t (2.00 / 6)

Wow - mojo'd for your sig...oh and the diary gets a big fat RECO for facts and logic.  I hear trolls are allergic to those...


Congratulations Steny Hoyer! Our 2008 Chickenshit Leader Of The Year!
by RockvilleLiberal2 on Thu May 22, 2008 at 11:07:35 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Halved? (none / 0)

You mean physically, like, with some kind of saw?

Or biologically, through mitosis?


Universal healthcare IS a core Democratic value
Without a REAL committment to it, we WON'T win in November.
by architek on Fri May 23, 2008 at 07:19:05 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Halved? (none / 0)

Like nuclear fission.  BOOM!


by TL on Fri May 23, 2008 at 07:31:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Halved? (none / 0)

Haha, ironic sig considering this is a diary responding to alegre.


by Djo on Fri May 23, 2008 at 02:24:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Silly season, indeed. n/t (none / 0)

Elsinora, you have the definition of republic wrong.

Republic means that we elect and/or put people in place who WE HOPE will ultimately reflect the will of the people, as reflected in the popular vote.

The Electoral College is a great example. The electors for a state could actually vote in a way that is opposite to how the state voted. And it would be legal and constitutional.


I proudly support Barack Obama for President!
by Zeitgeist9000 on Fri May 23, 2008 at 12:15:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Is it true that the insignificant 'citizens' of (none / 0)

this nation have no official legal 'right' to vote for our leaders, just to be treated equally.

(This came up in Fahrenheit 911, remember?)

So, in other words, its not a democracy, its a republic. Rule by the moneyed elite.

In England in the past, as I understand it, only (male) property owners who were not employed by others (independent tradespeople and the idle rich) could vote. (It was thought that those who were employed by others would be unduly influenced by them to influence the vote in fear for their jobs)

In Hong Kong, not only can corporations vote, they have a special house of government just for them.

Maybe we should just change to 'one dollar, one vote' or something like that.. make it simpler..


Universal healthcare IS a core Democratic value
Without a REAL committment to it, we WON'T win in November.
by architek on Fri May 23, 2008 at 07:25:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is it true that the insignificant 'citizens' o (none / 0)

prove the assertation in your sig line please


I read the body count out of the paper; now it's written all over my face.
by JDF on Fri May 23, 2008 at 10:06:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Is it true that the insignificant 'citizens' o (2.00 / 2)

Elected representatives in this democratic republic may, in fact, choose to go against the will of the their constituents.  It would be constitutional and legal to do so (in some cases).  While this is very frustrating for the people that they represent, let's not pretend that your conclusion is an accurate one.  Those representatives do so at risk to their own ability to gain reelection.  It is not something that is done lightly by any elected official who wants to remain an elected official.

It is nice to talk about a pure democracy.  In fact, pure democracy is a horribly oppressive thing.  If the majority always gets its way through purely democratic voting then, by definition, the minority gets oppressed every time.  In  a pure democracy, minority views might as well be without any representation as the legislative and electoral results will be the same as if the minority had no representation at any point anyway.  It is termed "the tyranny of the majority" and it is why the founders created a democratic republic instead of just a democracy like the House of Representatives. Likewise they did not create a  pure republic like we have in the Senate as republics are maddeningly slow to react to the will of the people.

A half democracy, half republic serves to balance these characteristics very well.  You would do well to stop viewing this as a pure democracy.  As neat as they sound, you don't want one.


Government derives its power from those that it governs.
by lockewasright on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:02:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Silly season, indeed. n/t (none / 0)

Some states constitutionally require their electors to vote for the winner of their state in the electoral college. (20something of them)


by nwodtuhs on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:06:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Let me add Hillary's own words on MI (2.00 / 4)


"McSame: He's Constipated and Ready to GO!
by Al Rodgers on Fri May 23, 2008 at 12:52:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Let me add Hillary's own words on MI (2.00 / 1)

Yeah, that doesn't count. Don't ask why. It just doesn't.


Stop the racism. Fight the smears.
by CrazyDrumGuy on Fri May 23, 2008 at 09:12:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Silly season, indeed. n/t (none / 0)

have some phantom mojo and a phantom rec. Great job!!


Bush murders soldiers for profit. McCain wants to wet his beak.
by awobbly on Fri May 23, 2008 at 03:44:49 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Silly season, indeed. n/t (none / 0)

I tried to point this out earlier in another diary.  You have done a much better job.  Kudos!


by temptxan on Fri May 23, 2008 at 08:03:03 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Silly season, indeed. n/t (2.00 / 2)

It comes down to pure semantics in your diary. You say that even though their individual votes are watered down to only being able to select half of the delegates they would have had it's not a big deal... Let me guess, you don't live in eiother of those states do you?


by zerosumgame on Fri May 23, 2008 at 12:27:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's a democratic REPUBLIC, stupid! (2.00 / 4)

Is that why we have that thing called congress?


"The best way to show that a stick is crooked is not by arguing about it or spending time denouncing it, but to lay a straight stick alongside it" -DL Moody
by nextgen on Thu May 22, 2008 at 10:59:18 PM EST

Yep. And an Electoral College, too. (2.00 / 9)

And, point of interest: originally, U.S. senators weren't even directly elected by the people, but by the state legislatures.  The Founding Fathers had no faith whatsoever in direct democracy.


Wouldn't it be nice if there were no rhetorical questions?
by Elsinora on Thu May 22, 2008 at 11:02:47 PM EST
[ Parent ]

mobs of people... (none / 0)

...are kind of stupid.


by DawnG on Fri May 23, 2008 at 01:07:17 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yep. And an Electoral College, too. (none / 0)

If I remember correctly, people didn't even vote directly for President until the 1830s when Andrew Jackson won.  Before that the delegates to the electoral college were selected by state legislature.  Is that correct?


by the mollusk on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:20:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Not exactly... (2.00 / 1)

By 1830's very few states selected their electors to the Electoral College by a vote from the state legislature.  State legislatures choosing electors was more a practice for the first election of George Washington (and still not every state did it then).  In 1824, Jackson was fighting for every man to be abel to vote regardless of whether he owned property.  While some states had given the franchise to every man (like Pensylvania), some states had restricted it only to landowners.  By the time of the 1828 election, Jackson had made sure that almost every state gave the franchise to every man regardless of property ownership.


John McCain wants you to be poor!
by nklein on Fri May 23, 2008 at 01:07:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yep. And an Electoral College, too. (none / 0)

Pure democracy is not something that you should have faith in.  If it is not tempered by mixing it with a republic, democracy becomes oppressive of minorities.


Government derives its power from those that it governs.
by lockewasright on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:20:45 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Parties are private associations. There's (2.00 / 4)

little they can't do constitutionally under the 1st amendment.

They don't have to let the public have a say in choosing their nominee.


by bobdoleisevil on Thu May 22, 2008 at 11:07:36 PM EST

Teddy Roosevelt won the primaries in 1912; (2.00 / 2)

9 of the 14 [most states didn't have them]. Got more votes.

But Taft controlled the party machine and got the nomination.


by bobdoleisevil on Thu May 22, 2008 at 11:11:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

There's a fascinating history (2.00 / 1)

since reconstruction of how Dixiecrats kept circumventing voting rights for AAs first by banning them from voting in Democratic primaries.  Then that was ruled unconstitutional: primaries are part and parcel of the electoral process and therefore can't violate anti-discrimination statutes.  So they formed these party committees with the express purpose of "endorsing" only white nominees.  Who would never lose.

But other than adhering to non-discrimination statues, parties can pretty much set any rules they like.


by corph on Fri May 23, 2008 at 10:51:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's a democratic REPUBLIC, stupid! (2.00 / 8)

Thank you so much for this diary.  The Clinton argument is so beyond the pale that the fundamental point needs to be hammered home: if half of the delegates are seated, each primary voter still gets counted.  It is the delegates' votes that are cut in half.

This has been the most frustrating argument of any campaign I can remember.  It's the height of disingenuousness.


by Pat Flatley on Thu May 22, 2008 at 11:09:52 PM EST

Re: It's a democratic REPUBLIC, stupid! (2.00 / 1)

I'm not sure where I stand on the FL/MI issue, but this argument that halving the delegates still gives the voters a voice is bs.  If delegates are apportioned by state relative to the population to ensure everyone throughout the country gets an equal say, then cutting the delegates in half effectively cuts each primary voter's say in half in those states.  To argue that this is not true is to just play a smoke and mirrors game.


by slynch on Fri May 23, 2008 at 02:42:39 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's a democratic REPUBLIC, stupid! (none / 0)

But their proportional voice is NOT at issue here.  The issue is what to do with states that violate the rules of the DNC.  How hard is that to understand?  Especially at this point in the game and discussion...


by oliver cromwell on Fri May 23, 2008 at 07:13:40 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I can still post at MyDD (none / 0)

but I've lost the ability to HR, TR and rec diaries, because I broke the rules. I know this will get me the "apples and oranges" argument, but at the root level, it's the same thing. You either follow the rules or you take the punishment.


by bookish on Fri May 23, 2008 at 07:33:20 AM EST
[ Parent ]

More than Apples and Oranges.... (none / 0)

The problem is,  the VOTERS didn't break the rules,  and they are the ones being punished in these states.  I wish people would see this fact.  Hillary may have signed off on these rules (shame on her for doing that btw) but that doesn't make them right.  These are not Hillary's, Obama's, Dean's or anyone else's votes to play political games with.  Just count the votes and assign the delegates.  As for Michigan, fine give Obama the UNCOMMITTED, as its obvious he would have received VOTES.

The bottom line is this:  Our party cannot go into the November election with either state holding a grudge against the DEMOCRATS.  I said this in the VERY BEGINNING, and I assumed Howard Dean would not be so incompetent to not negotiate something BEFORE these states elections.  I was wrong.  


Hillary/Obama 2008
by Sandy1938 on Fri May 23, 2008 at 08:20:13 AM EST
[ Parent ]

However, (2.00 / 3)

they elected their representatives, who in turn voted to move up the primaries. As I've said before, I don't remember seeing any rioting in the street around the time that the votes passed, so I have to assume at least passive complicity of the voters.

There won't be a grudge, because a portion of the delegates will be allocated, thereby giving a (slightly smaller, though still) representative vote to the states of MI and FL.

As for Howard Dean, I know you guys like to make him your bogeyman, but he's not the only one who called for a punishment above the minimum outlined in the DNC's Delegate Selection Rules, though the RBC was well within their rights under those same rules to extend beyond the minimum.

Let's put the blame where it lies, on the state parties and elected members who tried to circumvent the schedule for their own gratification. The great irony of the situation is that both states would have been incredibly relevant to the process had they just stayed put. It was a calculated risk on their part that didn't pay off.


by bookish on Fri May 23, 2008 at 08:28:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: However, (2.00 / 1)

They blame Dean because if they blamed Ickes they would look silly.


Stop the racism. Fight the smears.
by CrazyDrumGuy on Fri May 23, 2008 at 09:16:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

"us" and "they" (none / 0)

sure don't do anything to "turn the page."


Hillary/Obama 2008
by Sandy1938 on Fri May 23, 2008 at 09:19:58 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: "us" and "they" (2.00 / 2)

If you read the post above mine, "they" refers to the people who blame Howard Dean for the decision made by the RBC (of which Ickes is a member).

I'm so very sorry if my use of pronouns offends you. When they (!) invent a new third-person plural pronoun, do let me know.


Stop the racism. Fight the smears.
by CrazyDrumGuy on Fri May 23, 2008 at 09:30:02 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Not a boogeyman but still 100 percent responsible, (none / 0)

for this mess,  since he alone is the head of the DNC an he alone should have gone down to Florida during the month's of November and December.  I am consistent- I hold Bush responsible for the making the decision to go to war with IRAQ.  

Now something unrelated, but if you can answer this I would appreciate it, since I am not going to write a diary on this:   Lets say that 50 percent of the delegates are seated in FL/MI.  This would have been the ORIGINAL RULE that the DNC had in place.  Do you feel that HIllary was "stripped of her momentum" going into Super Tuesday?   Momentum is unquantifiable, true,  but I am sure Obama supporters can appreciate how MOMENTUM changes a nomination contest (remember when Obama became the frontrunner after the "momentum" from Iowa)????  

Again, not trying to hijack the diary, but I am just curious to hear your thoughts on the subject and you seem reasonable.


Hillary/Obama 2008
by Sandy1938 on Fri May 23, 2008 at 09:41:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I'll give it a shot (2.00 / 1)

I'm not sure that a momentum argument holds much weight since Florida was stripped in August 2007 and Michigan in early December. That allowed plenty of time for both candidates to adjust their campaign strategies to the new realities.

Since you've brought up Iowa, let me just say that I believe that's where Clinton lost the nomination (and notice I don't say that's where Obama won it). Had her campaign really looked at the possible new realities of strategy for the season and put a full court effort into the ground operation in Iowa, I think she could have won there, denying the Obama campaign a major victory (major because it's the first contest), and allowing her to claim two states in a row immediately. I think Obama would still have won SC - by a lower percentage, though - but it wouldn't have given him the steam that he wound up having going into Super Tuesday, and she would have ended the contest then.

And thanks for saying that I seem reasonable...that happens very little here, and almost never in my personal existence.  ;)


by bookish on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:10:51 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Good Point except (none / 0)

lets face it.  It would have been tough for Hillary to win Iowa no matter what.  Hillary's base of voters just don't do caucuses.  That sounds like an excuse, but its the truth.  Political activists do caucuses.  So in a way, that is why we have the (presumptive) nominee that we do:  The activist wing won out because two non-activist primaries were stripped of momentum, imo.  And that is why so many Hillary supporters are angry.  And yes, you can say "well Hillary signed off on the deal" and that is true. However,  the DNC did threaten sanctions against any candidate who didn't, so she was stuck between a rock and a hard place.  

Moreover,  the "Howard Ickes and Terry McAullife were on the rules committee" argument wont change the fact that many Hillary supporters believe that it was this LOSS OF MOMENTUM that made the nominee for whom they have worked so hard, not win the nomination.  

Overall, its a mess. Obama supporters will be (perhaps rightfully) outraged if somehow Hillary manages to get the nomination by changing the rules after the fact.  And some Hillary supporters feel cheated already.  This whole thing could have, and should have, been avoided imo.  

In the end, the only real solution I see is to have the ticket be Obama/Hillary.  That will bring peace to the party and "most" supporters of both candidates will be "somewhat" happy.


Hillary/Obama 2008
by Sandy1938 on Fri May 23, 2008 at 12:47:50 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I can't face something I don't believe (none / 0)

At least you give some ground by saying "it would have been tough,"-and I'll agree with you-but it wasn't impossible, especially if her campaign had been willing to build the ground level structure necessary to compete. She ran a strategically inept campaign from even before day one, and it cost her the nomination.

I'm just going to have to disagree with you on your momentum theory. She never really built any momentum in the primary season, and you can't blame that on decisions that were passed down months before.

BTW, Terry McAuliffe wasn't on the RBC, only Ickes, though he and four other of the Clinton supporters on the committee maxed out their donations to her campaign in Q1/2007 (during the "exploratory" phase), so I have a hard time believing that those five weren't communicating with her campaign at the time the decisions were passed down in late 2007.

As for the dream ticket, I wouldn't hold my breath. The Field reported yesterday that they have confirmation that the Clinton camp approached Obama about the VP slot, and he said no thanks. If he was to accept her on the ticket as a conciliatory measure, he would start off in a position of weakness having not been able to make his own choice; plus, Clinton on the ticket totally undermines the change message, and I've seen several polls (including the Quinnipiac from yesterday) that show there isn't a majority support for her on the ticket.

Thanks for the civil discourse. I think we'll all get there soon enough.


by bookish on Fri May 23, 2008 at 01:10:27 PM EST
[ Parent ]

We aren't punishing FL & MI (none / 0)

We are rewarding the 54 other states, districts and territories for holding a primary or caucus in accordance with the rules.  


Consider that everything which happens, happens justly, and if thou observest carefully, thou wilt find it to be so. -Marcus Aurelius
by Blue Neponset on Fri May 23, 2008 at 09:19:54 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: We aren't punishing FL & MI (none / 0)

You mean 51?  Iowa, New Hampshire and South Carolina broke the rules as well, but the DNC decided that would be ok.

The whole process needs to be reformed.  As far as scheduling is concerned, a regional or state lottery system would be the best way to go.


by therealdeal on Fri May 23, 2008 at 03:13:44 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's a democratic REPUBLIC, stupid! (2.00 / 3)

I have to say this sounds right to me - the "half" solution is pretty clearly a political compromise intended mainly to put the issue to rest.

But then, at this point there is no fair way to find out what the will of the voters was on that day.  In any reasonably sane accounting, those votes were affected by (1) the fact that there was no campaign, and (2) the fact that in Michigan Obama's name was not on the ballot.  How do we know it affected the results?  Probably most important is the turnout.  As we know, the Dem contest was turning out many, many more voters than the Rep contest back then -- except in MI and Fl, where the voters were told (including by Sen. Clinton) that their votes would not count.  A lot of people stayed home.  We don't know who they were or how they would have voted if a normal primary had been held.  Period.

Also - how incredibly convenient it is for Sen. Clinton to argue that the election was a fair test after there was no campaign in those states.  She had a huge, huge name recognition advantage and the challenger had been prevented from running a campaign.  To deny that that gave her a large and unfair advantage is to blink all we know about campaigns.


by TL on Fri May 23, 2008 at 07:39:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

It is not perfectly preportional (none / 0)

States that hold their primaries later are awarded more delegates in proportion to their population in compensation.  This is done to offset the effect of later primaries usually playing less of a role.  Keeping that in mind, it only makes sense that a state that moves up in the schedule would have their delegates reduced, otherwise they are ending up with far more influence than is fair.


by protothad on Fri May 23, 2008 at 09:20:36 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's a democratic REPUBLIC, stupid! (none / 0)

Delegates aren't apportioned per state relative to population. They are apportioned to state via whim by the DNC. The DNC's whims are supposedly based on past electoral turnout, which doesn't explain why Puerto Rico (which can't vote in the GE) has more pledged delegates than most of the States in the United States.


unapologetic Obama supporter
by dantes on Fri May 23, 2008 at 10:05:59 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I said I wasn't going to come back here (1.80 / 5)

until the primaries were over (not that I've been a long time poster), but there are enough here that don't have the Clinton Blinders (tm) on (you can still see through the fog), that I hesitate to desert what was once a fine ship.

I've recommended this diary.  Thanks Elsinora for posting it.  


A ship adrift in a sea of rhetoric & recycled clichés.
by DemsRising on Thu May 22, 2008 at 11:12:57 PM EST

I came here from DK... (1.80 / 5)

...after spending weeks reading the increasingly batty arguments on the wreck list and becoming unable to keep refuting them solely in my head.

Right now, the distribution of reality/unreality-based posters looks close to 50/50, so we're headed in the right direction.


should we go outside? / should we break some bread? / are you'nterested?
by Firewall on Thu May 22, 2008 at 11:17:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I came here from DK... (2.00 / 2)

Ditto here.


A ship adrift in a sea of rhetoric & recycled clichés.
by DemsRising on Thu May 22, 2008 at 11:24:01 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I came here from DK... (none / 0)

I came here from DK after reading diary after diary complain about how people in MyDD had completely lost it and were nothing but clinton bobble-heads. (paraphrasing)

So I came here.  And it was about as crazy as Dkos, just from a different direction.

But I kind of liked seeing that different direction so I stuck around.  I am and always have been a fence sitter on the primaries.  I don't care who wins, I only care HOW they win.


by DawnG on Fri May 23, 2008 at 01:10:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

DKos is a bit of an echo chamber... (2.00 / 2)

At least related to the candidates, DKos was becoming something of an echo chamber.  I still like it for the variety of issue related diaries (where are all the good environmental diaries on MyDD?), but MyDD has a bit more balance related to the nomination.

Furthermore, if we are ever to have Dem unity in November, we can't just retreat into our factions and stop talking to each other.  I decided to spend more time on MyDD so that the Obama supporters would still be represented... and not just by a freeper fifth column.


by protothad on Fri May 23, 2008 at 09:26:19 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's a democratic REPUBLIC, stupid! (1.60 / 5)

So your speciality is copying the titles of Alegre's diaries to make counter-Alegre diaries?

lol


TexasDarlin blog
by TexasDarlin on Thu May 22, 2008 at 11:15:30 PM EST

Nope, my speciality is correcting inaccuracies. (2.00 / 21)

What's yours?


Wouldn't it be nice if there were no rhetorical questions?
by Elsinora on Thu May 22, 2008 at 11:16:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

By her diary history, (2.00 / 4)

I'd wager posting pictures of poor people voting in sham elections in brilliant examples of irony.

(yes, that's from a TD diary about MI/FL)


should we go outside? / should we break some bread? / are you'nterested?
by Firewall on Thu May 22, 2008 at 11:18:56 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: By her diary history, (2.00 / 2)

I just love that photo.  I used to work over in that region of the world on "democracy" projects after the fall of communism, and it brings back fond memories of some of the good and decent folks I met who just wanted their votes to count.

Love that photo.


TexasDarlin blog
by TexasDarlin on Thu May 22, 2008 at 11:31:30 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: By her diary history, (2.00 / 1)

I commented on that photo calling it a Freudian Slip.


It's time to restore balance and fairness to our economy,... It's time to stop giving tax cuts to corporations that ship jobs overseas... - Barack Obama
by Lefty Coaster on Fri May 23, 2008 at 12:51:56 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: (2.00 / 2)

well, you might not like what i write, but they are my own ideas, especially the titles.  i think what you're doing -- piggybacking on alegre's diaries -- is a bit desperate looking and weakens your position.  but hey, that's just one woman's opinion.


TexasDarlin blog
by TexasDarlin on Thu May 22, 2008 at 11:20:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Check my diary history, Darlin. (2.00 / 17)

I have never "piggybacked" on anyone's diary before.  But when I see someone playing fast and lose with the facts, that merits refutation.  Don't you agree?


Wouldn't it be nice if there were no rhetorical questions?
by Elsinora on Thu May 22, 2008 at 11:23:39 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Check my diary history, Darlin. (2.00 / 1)

actually, I think your diary is playing a little fast and loose with the facts here, too.  Cutting the delegates in half for a state effectively cuts the voters' will in half.  MI and FL voters will have less say--granted, through their delegates--than voters in other states.


by slynch on Fri May 23, 2008 at 02:46:12 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Yes, and? (2.00 / 1)

Infractions have consequences.  Infractions SHOULD have consequences.  Consequences for infractions allow nations to function.

I fail to see the problem.


Wouldn't it be nice if there were no rhetorical questions?
by Elsinora on Fri May 23, 2008 at 07:43:09 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yes, and? (none / 0)

The matter is whether the penalty for said infraction is fair. Arguably, FL and Michigan have already been punished pretty severely. Those primaries could have been highly significant. Clinton could have gotten real momentum out of them going into Super Tuesday. The states were also deprived of the usual attention from the media, with the resulting influx of $$$$ in the form of campaign ads, full hotel rooms etc.


by Mayor McCheese on Fri May 23, 2008 at 10:12:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Yes, and? (none / 0)

So what's to stop states in 2012 from moving their primaries up? If the DNC threatens to sanction, everyone will remember how MI & FL got their delegates back, so these states (and the media) will figure that the primary would count anyway and act accordingly. Cue money, hotel rooms, profit, etc....


From a Hillary supporter: We laughed as that became our mantra - "Barack can't win!"..... ....."he can go to hell and i'll pay for his way there."
by Cochrane on Fri May 23, 2008 at 04:49:13 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Early states also have more say (none / 0)

States that go earlier usually have more impact on the nomination, so late states are given more delegates in compensation.  Reducing the delegates when a state moves up in the schedule is not just a penalty, it helps keep things fair.


by protothad on Fri May 23, 2008 at 09:32:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Early states also have more say (none / 0)

Is this true? I thought delegates were apportioned on the basis of population. For example, New York's primary was much earlier this year than its been  since I've been a voter and I didn't see that there delegate totals were reduced.


by Mayor McCheese on Fri May 23, 2008 at 10:14:00 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Its a bit more complicated (2.00 / 1)

They also factor in things like the impact the state has in the general election, and everything is subject to negotiation.  As I understand it, is more of a tradition than a rule that later states get more delegates.


by protothad on Fri May 23, 2008 at 10:38:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Check my diary history, Darlin. (2.00 / 1)

LOL.  No, absolutely not.  If no one were allowed to be fast and loose with the facts, TD wouldn't have anything to write about...


NJ Hussein Independent
by NJIndependent on Fri May 23, 2008 at 06:59:47 AM EST
[ Parent ]

oh? (2.00 / 1)

And Alegre having a squadron of people following her around to correct her common falacies of logic and fact somehow strengthens HER positions?

I'm sure plenty of people resent the need to clean up after her, but that doesn't diminish the need.


by DawnG on Fri May 23, 2008 at 01:12:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: (2.00 / 1)

Then why not refute such desperate and weak positions with facts that show that this is not at all what Senator Clinton's and the Florida Democratic party's position was prior to her starting to lose the nominating process?  I won't hold my breath.


by oliver cromwell on Fri May 23, 2008 at 07:19:07 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Actually, her specialty is calling out John (2.00 / 3)

Ashcroft.


by bobdoleisevil on Thu May 22, 2008 at 11:19:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Grow up (2.00 / 3)

She can title her diary any way she pleases within site guidelines.  Is there a "rule" here against the way it's worded?

Why don't you make a valid argument against the contect of her diary (if you have one), instead of tossing out nonsense?

Oh, silly me -- you don't have one.

lol  (OOPS, I guess I just plagiarized you)

Strike that lol - ROFL instead.


A ship adrift in a sea of rhetoric & recycled clichés.
by DemsRising on Thu May 22, 2008 at 11:32:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's a democratic REPUBLIC, stupid! (none / 0)

Effective rebuttal, Darlin!


What is The October Protocol?
by Koan on Fri May 23, 2008 at 11:37:42 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's a democratic REPUBLIC, stupid! (2.00 / 11)

This whole argument is patently absurd.  Clinton was completely fine with the DNC's rules until she needed the delegates from those states.  Then, with a straight face she began running as the "pro-enfranchisement" candidate.  It really defies description.


by rfahey22 on Thu May 22, 2008 at 11:19:15 PM EST

Indeed (2.00 / 4)

This Hillary quote is from the St. Petersburg Times on April 15, 2008:

So why didn't she speak up sooner about the need to count the votes of Florida Democrats, rather than wait until her campaign was in trouble after losses in Iowa and South Carolina?

"I was a little preoccupied," she said, laughing. "I was trying to stay alive, frankly."

She was too preoccupied to address something she's classified as a grave injustice on the same level as Jim Crow laws and what's going on in Zimbabwe???

She expects us to believe that?

No. She was perfectly fine with "disenfranchising" Florida and Michigan until she needed them to count.


by Angry White Democrat on Fri May 23, 2008 at 02:56:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Indeed (none / 0)

I beg you to save this comment and post it in all the nonsense diaries that Alegra and her ilk are inflicting on us over this grave miscarriage of justice to Hillary.


by interestedbystander on Fri May 23, 2008 at 05:42:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

But but (2.00 / 1)

democracy, apple pie, mom, baseball.  Are all these LIES!!!

On a person mentioned in a sig somewhere round here...:

(breaking out a new concern troll song I have a verse and chorus done) lyrics may contain 'adult' language.

[verse 1]
Just like popular belief
I am not a concern troll
But I am
Like popeye "I am what I yam"
I'm just a fool playing with my meager tools
Trying to inspire a undemocratic coup
Hallucination, I see with my eyes
but my I am brain knows it lies, oh why do I fantasize
Why am I telling lies to the people on the web
Pretending the race is tied when it was over in Feb.
Cause I can't understand
how people could elect that black man
Trying to fool the universe, heh that's a joke
I'll keep with the concern until my last note
This election I wrote
spinning vocabulary
I see its continuation is heavenly necessary
I should have known before the troll
I'd do it to keep the spirit of all the drones

[chorus]
It's funny how life can go
First you ride high then you might lay low
Don't believe the other side
Only in me should you confide
This is my message to the world
Just trying to concern all the 'boyz' and 'girls'
Not trying to say for sure
Just spreading concern...


Student Guy=JoeMentum. No really Student Guy=JoeMentum, after all JoeMentum was an embarrassment so is Student Guy. This sig is FAIL!!
by Student Guy on Thu May 22, 2008 at 11:19:19 PM EST

BTW (2.00 / 1)

this is not aimed at the author of the diary, but instead at some one who has a history of concern trolling and playing the fear card...

The rules prevent me from saying who it is, but just guess...


Student Guy=JoeMentum. No really Student Guy=JoeMentum, after all JoeMentum was an embarrassment so is Student Guy. This sig is FAIL!!
by Student Guy on Thu May 22, 2008 at 11:27:29 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Thanks (2.00 / 1)

But I prefer GLaDOS. :)


Stop the racism. Fight the smears.
by CrazyDrumGuy on Fri May 23, 2008 at 09:18:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's a democratic REPUBLIC, stupid! (1.50 / 6)

Lord the inanity of it all, just shows the complete lack of knowledge of Democracies all around the world. In all Democratic Republics the vote is one person one vote. The electoral college, the idea of delegates deciding the nominee is unique to the United States. If your first two paragraphs are based on a wrong premise the rest of your diary can be laughed away.


by tarheel74 on Thu May 22, 2008 at 11:22:43 PM EST

Last time I checked... (2.00 / 8)

this was the United States.

I could be wrong.


Wouldn't it be nice if there were no rhetorical questions?
by Elsinora on Thu May 22, 2008 at 11:24:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Also... (2.00 / 9)

the principle of the representative legislature is far, far from unique, chaver.  Not to mention that in several democratic republics, there has been no electoral college because the people didn't get to vote for the head of state at all--it's simply the leader of the party with the most seats in the legislature.

Thanks for playing, though.


Wouldn't it be nice if there were no rhetorical questions?
by Elsinora on Thu May 22, 2008 at 11:27:52 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Also... (2.00 / 2)

several but not all, there are exceptions. But it still does not address my point that your first two paragraphs are based on a false premise:

The U.S. is not a democracy.  It never has been.  It is a democratic republic.  What's the difference, you may ask?  In a democracy, citizens vote directly on all laws and policies.  In a democratic republic, citizens vote for representatives, who in turn make policy decisions on the citizenry's behalf.

There are numerous Democratic Republics which do not vote the same way. The US case is unique. So again your premise is false.


by tarheel74 on Thu May 22, 2008 at 11:35:24 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Name one democratic republic... (2.00 / 4)

that doesn't elect a legislature, and I'll concede the point.  If not, my point stands.


Wouldn't it be nice if there were no rhetorical questions?
by Elsinora on Thu May 22, 2008 at 11:38:53 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Name one democratic republic... (2.00 / 2)

Now you are being intellectually dishonest. Your point was this:

In other words, you have the right to vote for someone else who will in turn cast the votes that really count.  THAT is the principle of democracy in this country, as well as in the Democratic primaries.

That is more reflective of the electoral college...in this case the delegates are assigned to states and areas quite arbitrarily...which is primarily based on the Democratic voting blocks in 2004 elections.
If you really want to assign the legislative model then like France let the voters elect the head of state directly, or conversely let the Democratic party decide who their leader will be like other Democracies and let's have a election based on the leaders and the vision of their respective parties. This delegate process does neither but erects a sham where in some states the delegate proportion is disproportionately skewered, so even if one candidate wins the popular vote he or she loses the delegate count because they lost in one district that had the most delegates. That is a sham, that is a travesty and that is not reflective of legislative democracies, democratic republics or democracies in general.


by tarheel74 on Fri May 23, 2008 at 12:05:21 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Perfectly honest, intellectually and otherwise. (2.00 / 7)

Representative government is the spirit of republicanism.  In the U.S., we just happen to expand that principle to cover more areas of government.  (Also, if the majority of the citizenry supports a certain bill, but the legislature they elected votes it down, is that too a "sham" and a "travesty"?  Love it or hate it, it's the exact same principle.  And that, of course, was my point about democratic republicanism.)

I would like to see the Electoral College abolished, personally, and probably the delegate system as well.  But overthrowing the existing system mid-race isn't democracy, it's anarchy.  And anarchy isn't exactly an improvement from what we have.


Wouldn't it be nice if there were no rhetorical questions?
by Elsinora on Fri May 23, 2008 at 12:19:28 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Perfectly honest, intellectually and otherwise (2.00 / 2)

now finally you are being honest. You are ok with the existing system because to do anything else would be anarchy. Fine, but the existing system allows delegates to go against the will of their constituents and calls them superdelegates, the system also allows the disproportional allegation of delegates due to which even if one candidate happens to win the overall vote count he or she can tie or even lose the delegate count. Thus the system is rigged to ignore the majority and a candidate can lose the total vote count and still win the delegate count. That to me is undemocratic.


by tarheel74 on Fri May 23, 2008 at 12:27:14 AM EST
[ Parent ]

I've been honest since the beginning. (2.00 / 12)

And you are misrepresenting what I said.  To overthrow the rules RIGHT NOW, midrace, would be anarchic, because no one would or could agree on what to change the rules to, so there would simply be no rules.  To change the rules by mutual agreement prior to the start of the next primary season would be a good thing.  

So you can save your "OMG BUT TEH SYSTEM IZ BAD, STOP DEFENDING TEH SYSTEM!!11!one" for somebody who wants to keep the system permanently.  As for myself, I agree with your analysis of the system, but your "CHANGE NOW!" solution is woefully naive and downright harmful to democracy.


Wouldn't it be nice if there were no rhetorical questions?
by Elsinora on Fri May 23, 2008 at 12:48:08 AM EST
[ Parent ]

you OWNED that exchange (1.66 / 3)

wasn't even close.

Mojo'd!

Recc'ed!

::::virtual high five :::::


No way. No how. No McCain!
by spacemanspiff on Fri May 23, 2008 at 01:47:32 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: you OWNED that exchange (none / 0)

Does anyone do first aid - I think tarheel has some nasty wounds that need tending?


by interestedbystander on Fri May 23, 2008 at 05:54:11 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I've been honest since the beginning. (none / 0)

Ofcourse, but you forget that the rules committee can change 'the rules' midway. That too apparently is a part of the 'the rules'. So your argument is self-defeating.


by devil on Fri May 23, 2008 at 06:56:30 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Not really, you have been making it up all along (1.50 / 2)

actually what you are saying right now is in direct contradiction to what your diary is all about.

You first said that US is a democratic republic and like ALL democratic republics the elected reps choose the head of state....I disproved that.

Then you said that show one country where the legislature does not vote on laws on behalf of the people, I pointed out that was not the point here. We have a system of electoral colleges and arbitrary delegate allocation which flies in the face of democratic republics and democratic elections. You conceded that point and say that you do not want the rules to change.

So as it now goes I have proven that your initial premise is false. Your sweeping generalization of ALL democratic republics is unfounded. In fact now you come back to the core argument of all Obama fans (yeah your puerile friends down below cheerleading your equally childish outburst) that is screw the popular vote, if the RULEZ say delegates so be it. But that is not what democracy is all about. In a truly democratic republic the head of state is chosen by majority vote or in some cases the party which receives majority elects its leader as head of state. So again your premise is false and therefore your entire diary is self-defeating.

Finally I am not asking anyone to change the rules. The rules are as they stand. But since two million people have voted their representatives have to be seated, to do otherwise is called disenfranchisement, something that only happens in banana republics. Finally by counting those votes it is then essential for all delegates and superdelegates to see who is the clear winner of the popular vote. Then let them vote for the nominee. As it now stands what's happening now is a mockery of democracy. Unless the aspiration of Obama and all his fans is to get nominated  by any means even if that means disenfranchising 2 million voters and thus turn our democratic republic into a banana republic, you too would ask for these votes to be counted. To do otherwise is a mockery of our democratic process. You just cannot pretend that 2 million votes do not exist.


by tarheel74 on Fri May 23, 2008 at 09:53:53 AM EST
[ Parent ]

False Premises (2.00 / 1)

Your argument seems to be that since the OP did not specifically say that the explanation given was for the US system only, then the entire argument is false.

Additionally, the OP made it clear that the current system is by no means preferred over other, more fair systems.

You are attempting a strawman argument by asserting that the OP made 'sweeping generalizations' and asserting that the OP's argument is that Rules trump fairer forms of democracy. Neither of these assertions is true, therefore 'disproving them' is a simple strawman.

The OP has subsequently clarified these points, thus eliminating the (false) premises for your arguments.

It is clear the poster is making a distinction between pure forms of Democracy, which are decidedly NOT preferred because of the inherent oppression they create, and the USA's implementation of a Democratic Republic. The distinction is important because it exposes another strawman argument being used:

America is a Democracy. In a Democracy, all votes count. Therefore, not counting MI and FL votes is not American.

False premis fallacy.

The OP is arguinbg that America is a form of Democratic Republic in which not all votes count, therfore to say MI and FL are suffering is disingenuous.
by liquidbread11 on Fri May 23, 2008 at 12:12:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: False Premises (none / 0)

Well said.

It's unfortunate that MI and FL failed to follow the DNC rules and moved their primaries ahead of super tuesday, but to not enforce the rules here would be inviting other states to promote themselves.

The primary process should be fair to candidates, and states should be sequenced to avoid undue advantage, so controlling which states can be first is critical to maintaining that level (or as level as it can be made) playing field.


"I'm all for the delegate battle, and now that Obama's campaign is too, I'm all giddy. It's going to be the supers as kingmaker." J.Armstrong 01/19/08
by obscurant on Fri May 23, 2008 at 12:29:55 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Not really, you have been making it up all alo (1.33 / 3)

Insults hidden in responses only weaken your argument.

All your questions have been answered and all your points refuted.

No need to get testy.


No way. No how. No McCain!
by spacemanspiff on Fri May 23, 2008 at 02:43:20 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's a democratic REPUBLIC, stupid! (2.00 / 2)

Japan is fairly close to a republic, and it does not have one person, one vote.


by rfahey22 on Thu May 22, 2008 at 11:45:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's a democratic REPUBLIC, stupid! (2.00 / 1)

it still does have a direct election and proprtional representation (at least in part).


by tarheel74 on Fri May 23, 2008 at 12:12:52 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's a democratic REPUBLIC, stupid! (2.00 / 1)

Are you crazy?  I live in the UK and we certainly do not elect our leaders with one person one vote.  Are you confusing choosing nominees with general elections?  Come to think of it, we don't even do that in the general election here.


by interestedbystander on Fri May 23, 2008 at 05:51:27 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's a democratic REPUBLIC, stupid! (1.00 / 0)

in the UK you vote the party in power and the party elects the PM. In the end it is still representative of the will of people. As it stands here the popular vote can go one way and the nominee/president can be someone else because of the electoral college/delegate system. Maybe you need a primer on elections in UK....a high school civics course perhaps?


by tarheel74 on Fri May 23, 2008 at 10:00:50 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's a democratic REPUBLIC, stupid! (2.00 / 1)

No, you need a course.

Parliament represents the will of the people through it's members (who represent their whole electorate, regardless of party). The government in power is always secondary to the 'sovereignty' of parliament, itself a manifestation, over time, of the power of the crown turned over to the will of the people.

It's very easy, especially with a three party system, for the nominee/president NOT to reflect the immediate snapshot of the will of the people. Obama is in a very similar position - under different counts he loses the popular vote as added up in all caucuses and primaries, but still wins more delegates. The same can easily happen here where votes pile up high in a safe consituency, but you lose the swing states.

Representative democracies INVARIABLY work this way, because of the plebiscite populism problem so evident in totalitarian and authoritarian states.

A simple example of this is that Parliament, in free votes since the 1960s, has always voted AGAINST reinstatement of the death penalty - even though it has been supported, until recently, by a majority of the population.

There are certain roles, such as collective defence or justice which are never completely subject to the will of the people in one moment - partially because the representatives are often the ones who will have to prosecute and execution or a war. Representative democracy is the way of keeping in positions of power responsible, and those who vote for them honest


Pointing to the inadequacies of John McCain
by duende on Fri May 23, 2008 at 10:38:33 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's a democratic REPUBLIC, stupid! (none / 0)

Yeah, what he said.


by interestedbystander on Fri May 23, 2008 at 04:31:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's a democratic REPUBLIC, stupid! (none / 0)

It's perfectly possible in the UK to win the general election with less votes than the opposition.


by interestedbystander on Fri May 23, 2008 at 04:35:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: It's a democratic REPUBLIC, stupid! (none / 0)

The electoral college, the idea of delegates deciding the nominee is unique to the United States.

Yes, discounting India, Pakistan, Italy, and probably others, the electoral college is unique to the US.

"I'm all for the delegate battle, and now that Obama's campaign is too, I'm all giddy. It's going to be the supers as kingmaker." J.Armstrong 01/19/08
by obscurant on Fri May 23, 2008 at 12:20:37 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Virtual Rec (2.00 / 3)

And the Truth Shall Set You Free


Obama supporter who is damn glad Hillary Clinton is a Democrat!!
by hootie4170 on Thu May 22, 2008 at 11:26:56 PM EST

Rec'd (2.00 / 15)

I like how a good pattern is emerging:

Shortly after alegre gets another misinformed, delusional, dishonest, bizarre and flat-out WRONG diary onto the recommended list, someone responds on point with a powerful, fact-filled counterpoint diary.

alegre's diaries are an embarrassment to rational political analysis, but I always smile when someone else thrashes the nonsense in short order.


by Slim Tyranny on Thu May 22, 2008 at 11:34:43 PM EST

Now that (none / 0)

I added my concern troll song which fits this diary but isn't aimed at the author of the diary, I can say this:
Recced.
Student Guy=JoeMentum. No really Student Guy=JoeMentum, after all JoeMentum was an embarrassment so is Student Guy. This sig is FAIL!!
by Student Guy on Thu May 22, 2008 at 11:35:32 PM EST

Re: It's a democratic REPUBLIC, stupid! (2.00 / 2)

Thank you for applying cool logic to a post-rational (& thanks Rachel Maddow) POV.


McCainuire, The Wrath Of Not Enough Naps.
by catilinus on Thu May 22, 2008 at 11:39:05 PM EST

And lest we forget... (none / 0)

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States